[FFML] [ORIG] Honeypot

Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net
Wed Aug 5 14:27:18 PDT 2009

> > This gets to one of the problems with the concept:
> what's the
> > point of the honeys?  You have girls who die,
> fine.  Why
> > replace them with robots who take the deceased's name
> and
> > image, especially if so many of their families will
> > essentially despise them?  "Crazy social policy
> imposed by a
> > government (probably just one official) that's trying
> to
> > 'help with the grief' while getting socialized robots
> > introduced to society, and doesn't pay attention to
> the
> > actual results" is the only justification that comes
> to mind,
> > and even that seems flimsy.
> It's the title's implication.  Society is expected to
> breakdown when
> the gender imbalance becomes too extreme.  So to
> reduce the pressure
> on the few remaining women you need to draw off at least
> some of the
> guys.  Hence the honeypots.

Yhat's well and good for society.  Doesn't explain why
people tolerate this specific method of introducing
them.  "Oh, sorry your baby girl died.  Here, you 'get'
to raise a robogirl, who will take the name and face of
your child, but practically nobody will ever confuse
her for your real daughter.  Oh, and she'll never have
kids, either, in case you wanted to continue your
family line."  As opposed to, say, simple adoption by
volunteers - or, if there aren't enough volunteers, at
least giving them their own names and identities.

> > There's no meaner gossip than that which flows over
> an
> > uninterceptable, completely secure channel.
> I meant to leave open the question of individual free will
> for the
> honeys.  Are they able to fake out the Turing Test
> individually, or
> only with a group effort?

Given the attitudes and reactions, I'd say they're not
even passing the Turing Test collectively.  Not to the
level where extended interrogation fails to tell them
from human beings, anyway.

But also: say a boy confess a secret problem to a
honey. (Say, he's been taking medications he doesn't
want people to find out about, but left today's dose
at home.  He thinks he can tough it out with, at worst,
discomfort.  She doesn't say it, but she disagrees.)
She might not be able to help, but a short time later,
another honey comes along and apparently randomly -
and, of course, in secret from all but him - fixes
that problem.  But no honey breathes a word of it to
any other human being.  He wonders what else they're
sharing - worries about comparing sexual performance,
for example, come naturally to one in this situation.
And perhaps it is being shared - openly, but
completely objectively.  (In cases where this would
warrant intervention - rape et al - the one whose
secrets are shared generally gets what's coming to
him, since the data on this network apparently can
not be falsified or misunderstood, unlike what
happens with similar information sharing among real
humans, which is a large part of the reason for
valuing privacy in the first place.  See the ending
of Wednesday's Child: Chapter Three, as just posted
to this list, for a good example of what might be

> >> After lunch we had P.E.  The girls went off
> to do yoga
> >> in the shade, with
> >> Ada tagging along with Nadia.  The rest of us
> split
> >> into two Soccer teams.
> >> The other side chose first, so they had six boys
> to our
> >> five, but that gave
> >> us 4 honeys to their three.  I picked Linda
> as our
> >> first honey.
> >
> > This definitely seems unusual.  If the honeys
> are
> > supposed to identify as girls, why mix them with boys
> in
> > the few times where they are officially split by
> gender?
> > "Not as 'fragile'" or "no need for girl-specific
> things"
> > don't seem to hold up against "get them to socialize
> as
> > the girls they're replacing".
> Perhaps I need to mention Nadia getting the other girls to
> tag along with her.

This is P.E., and thus a class.  The teacher doesn't
dictate where the kids go?

> >> On the first play Linda got the ball and moved
> forwards,
> >> but Chuck ran up
> >> and deliberately kicked at her.  She jumped
> forwards
> >> to avoid him while
> >> kicking the ball back to me.  Because Chuck
> and Larry
> >> were both in front of
> >> me it was a fair pass.  I took the kick, but
> Greg
> >> blocked it.
> >
> > Do you mean, "Because Chuck and Linda"?  Larry
> isn't
> > otherwise mentioned in this paragraph - in fact, this
> is
> > the first mention of Larry in the entire story - so
> > there's no apparent reason why Larry's position
> matters.
> Soccer rules.  Looks like a good candidate to drop.

You miss the point.  If you really meant Larry, just
mention who Larry is and why he matters - or possibly
refer to him by his relevant title ("Because Chuck and
[insert title here] were...").  But it looks like you
meant to say Linda, not Larry.

> > If you do depart from standard fictional conventions
> like
> > this, though, it's usually best to say so.  A
> brief
> > exposition on the reasons behind it (to confirm that,
> yes,
> > reality is like this in this universe, and there are
> reasons
> > for it) is usually all it takes.
> Okay, will try tying the movie at the start to their
> limited
> performance (they're cooling limited) later.  So the
> movie will be
> about some super robot who plays by Hollywood rules.

That might work.  Perhaps have Linda or the narrator
comment on the difference.  Remember, most of the
audience will be used to Hollywood rules, but not to
reality.  (As they say, "Reality Is Unrealistic".)

> > Also, would she likely know?  If she's in school
> in the first
> > place, it seems quite possible that she's not
> pre-programmed
> > with the higher level engineering knowledge needed to
> fully
> > understand her inner workings.  Possibly she
> could look it
> > up (like she did with the movie) - but then, couldn't
> he
> > (albeit more slowly and later)?
> I intended to have hinted by this point that the honeys
> have free
> access to an expanded Internet and perfect memory so book
> learning is
> not a problem.  Humanity is.

There's a difference between book learning and understanding.
An AI that understands concepts can be told that information
about X can be found at location Y...but if they're in
school, that indicates the process of learning beyond that is
similar to humans'.  Otherwise, they could simply access texts
on psychology and instantly form an emotional soul (or at
least a close enough facsimile) on demand - and wouldn't get
confused by questions like, "How do you feel?"

> The name of the flu hints that this story is really about
> what is
> happening here and now (in some places on the Earth),
> rather than a
> hypothetical future woe.  We just don't have the
> technology to provide
> a replacement for the Asian girl gap.

Sure we do: the technology of transportation.  Witness the
emigration of excess Asian males to less-impacted parts of
the world.

Also, this fails as a metaphor for that.  The reason for
the Asian girl gap is that traditional Asian parents do not
want daughters, because in their eyes, their family line is
entirely patrilineal - so to them, daughters are useless or
worse.  (Western societies, on the other hand, have
generally accepted that one's ancestors of importance -
including historical matters, matters of inheritance, et
cetera - include both one's father's family and one's
mother's family, and that a woman does not "lose" her own
parents and "replace" them with her husband's when she
marries.  This attitude is spreading into Asian cultures,
but has not yet been universally accepted.)  Many of those
families that take action to increase the gap would be
among the first to object to replacement daughters.

> >> "Yes Linda Burks was born on May 14th, but she
> died exactly
> >> one year
> >> later.  My parents and my brothers do not
> celebrate
> >> that day.  Instead we
> >> visit her grave."
> >
> > Period after "Yes".  Also, shouldn't she use some
> specifier
> > (such as "the other", "the real", or "the human")
> when
> > referring to the other entity that also uses the name,
> "Linda
> > Burks"?  Otherwise, it sounds like she is talking
> about
> > herself, yet she is clearly not.
> Again I'm working here on the issue of their sense of
> self.  Are they
> just interchangeable worker bees (who have no objection to
> performing
> the world's oldest profession if called to do so), or are
> the fully
> functional human replacements, or does the truth lie
> someplace in
> between?

Whether or not she has a sense of self, she knows that she
is distinct from the human she's replacing.  If you mean
for there to be any confusion on that point - that would
be the "altered children" storyline you said you're not
writing, no?  ;)

> Again thanks for the comments.  It'll give me a bit to
> think over.

Thank you for taking a risk and trying an original line.
Commenting on anime themes without needing reference to
any specific outside storyline can be interesting.  :)

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